Are Crypto Perpetuals Futures or Swaps? Kalshi vs. John Lothian

CoinDesk Podcast Network25mJune 12, 2026
AI-Generated Summary

The debate over whether crypto perpetuals are futures or swaps has ignited a high-stakes clash between regulatory clarity and market innovation. At the heart of the controversy is CalSHE’s newly approved U.S. crypto perpetuals, which the CFTC has classified as futures—allowing retail access and exchange-based trading. John Lothian, a veteran derivatives commentator, argues that perpetuals function more like swaps due to their continuous bilateral funding payments, which mirror swap mechanics. He warns that misclassifying them as futures risks blurring regulatory boundaries, undermining market integrity, and making it harder to explain derivatives to new generations. In response, Udesh Jha of CalSHE defends the futures classification, emphasizing that perpetuals meet all key criteria: exchange-traded, cleared, surveilled, and designed to track the spot price through explicit funding rates. He highlights that CalSHE built its platform with robust surveillance, leverage controls, and pre-trade/post-trade protections—proving its commitment to regulation-first innovation. The episode reveals a deeper tension: CalSHE gains commercial advantage from both classifications—futures status enables retail access, while swap status preempts state gambling laws for its event contracts. Yet the real stakes go beyond labels: they determine who can trade, how money is protected, and whether the U.S. can reclaim global leadership in crypto derivatives from offshore, unregulated markets.

Key Takeaways
1

Perpetuals are classified as futures by the CFTC to allow retail access, but critics argue they function more like swaps due to continuous bilateral funding payments.

2

CalSHE built its perpetuals with pre-trade and post-trade surveillance, leverage models, and auto-liquidation—matching traditional futures protections.

3

The swap classification would require trading on swap execution facilities, which would exclude retail investors and push volume offshore.

4

CalSHE benefits commercially from dual classification: futures status for retail access, swap status for event contracts to avoid state gambling laws.

5

Funding rates in CalSHE’s perpetuals are adjusted three times daily and based on minute-by-minute data, reducing manipulation risk compared to daily settlement.

…and 3 more takeaways available in PodZeus

Chapters
0:00
2 min

CalSHE's Regulatory Foundation

CalSHE emphasizes its commitment to regulation-first innovation, detailing its in-house surveillance teams, leverage models, and pre- and post-trade controls to ensure perpetuals are treated like traditional futures.

2:24
3 min

CFTC's New Rulemaking on Prediction Markets

If a contract goes live, they've got to act. The full commission has to act within 10 days. And if they don't... Their silence basically means that your contract goes forward.

Highlight
5:39
2 min

The Perpetuals Debate: Futures vs. Swaps

The funding rate is actually not a new concept. Funding rate, essentially what it does is it does the same economic thing that a cash futures basis would do.

Highlight
7:27
2 min

Economic Function Over Form

John Lothian contends that perpetuals resemble swaps because they involve ongoing bilateral cash flows, unlike traditional futures that settle only at expiration.

9:54
3 min

CalSHE's Defense of Futures Classification

If you look at it from all those 10 points, the perpetual fits right exactly as a future.

Highlight
High-Impact Quotes
So Kalshi benefits commercially from both classifications. Swap status for event contracts preempts state gambling regulators. And future status puts perps on your exchange with retail access.
Renato16:46
And so the more that we expand the definition of what a futures contract is, the more that we make it more difficult to explain.
John Lothian15:30
So if a contract goes live, they've got to act. The full commission has to act within 10 days. And if they don't... Their silence basically means that your contract goes forward.
Renato1:51
Speakers

Hosts

RebeccaRenato

Guests

John LothianUdesh Jha
Topics Discussed
crypto perpetuals95%futures vs swaps90%cftc regulation85%prediction markets80%regulatory classification75%retail access to crypto70%market manipulation65%state crypto regulation60%
People & Brands

CFTC

organization

15xNeutral

CalSHE

organization

12xPositive

John Lothian

person

10xNeutral

Udesh Jha

person

8xPositive

New York DFS

organization

4xPositive

Illinois digital asset trading tax

other

3xNegative

Trading Places

media

2xPositive

Gary Gensler

person

2xNeutral

Eddie Murphy rule

other

1xNeutral

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