#472 — Strange Days on the Right

In this episode of Making Sense, Sam Harris engages in a candid post-mortem with Ben Shapiro on the realities of Donald Trump's second term, reflecting on their prior debate just before the 2024 election. Shapiro acknowledges that while he underestimated the extent of Trump’s policy extremism—particularly in tariffs and foreign policy—he still believes the administration’s actual outcomes have been somewhat tempered by institutional pushback and the incompetence of some loyalists. Harris challenges Shapiro on the moral and democratic implications of Trump’s actions, especially the rebranding of January 6th as a 'day of love,' the pardoning of insurrectionists, and the rampant family corruption tied to Trump’s cryptocurrency ventures and foreign deals. Harris argues these developments represent a fundamental erosion of American democratic norms, while Shapiro resists moral condemnation, framing politics as a pragmatic choice between imperfect alternatives rather than a moral test. The conversation underscores a deep divergence in values: Harris sees Trump’s behavior as disqualifying for democratic leadership, while Shapiro prioritizes policy outcomes over personal ethics, viewing the president as a plumber fixing the nation’s 'toilet'—not a moral exemplar.