BONUS: The Invention Of Good And Evil: A World History Of Morality
Get the full intelligence
Search transcripts, export clips, track mentions, and explore all topics from “BONUS: The Invention Of Good And Evil: A World History Of Morality” inside PodZeus.
In this bonus episode of the After Dinner Podcast, host Jay Swords welcomes Dr. Hanno Sauer, Associate Professor of Philosophy at Utrecht University, to discuss his book *The Invention of Good and Evil: A World History of Morality*. Sauer traces the evolution of human morality from its roots in kinship-based cooperation five million years ago through the rise of agriculture, urbanization, and written legal codes like the Codex Hammurabi. He explores the paradox of altruism in evolutionary biology—why selfless behaviors like sacrifice and justice emerged in a world shaped by natural selection—and how writing enabled moral systems to scale beyond family and tribe. The conversation shifts to the digital age, where Sauer expresses cautious hope that society will develop new mechanisms to combat misinformation, much like it did with print media. He warns that excessive screen time and digital social interaction undermine genuine human connection, citing research linking strong offline relationships to greater happiness. Drawing from personal experience and parental concerns, Sauer advocates for delaying social media use until age 16 and reducing smartphone dependence in schools and family life. While acknowledging the benefits of digital connectivity, he emphasizes the need for intentional design of social norms to preserve mental well-being and democratic health.
Morality evolved from kinship cooperation to written laws as societies grew larger and more complex.
Altruism and justice are evolutionary puzzles—hard to explain in a dog-eat-dog world, but explainable through group selection and long-term cooperation.
Written moral codes like the Ten Commandments and Codex Hammurabi emerged with urbanization and large-scale societies.
Digital communication has ambivalent effects: while enabling connection, it often replaces meaningful face-to-face interaction with passive, delayed 'pseudo-social' experiences.
Excessive screen time correlates with lower happiness; real social joy comes from leaving the house and engaging in physical, immediate interactions.
…and 3 more takeaways available in PodZeus
Introduction and Evolution of Morality
Jay Swords introduces Dr. Hanno Sauer and the topic of his book, *The Invention of Good and Evil*, setting the stage for a deep dive into the evolutionary roots of morality, beginning five million years ago.
From Kinship to Altruism: The Evolutionary Puzzle
“In philosophy, this is called the problem of theodicy, explaining evil and suffering even though a benevolent god is supposed to exist. Now when you think about morality in a Darwinian evolutionary framework, you get the opposite problem... it's kind of hard to understand where altruism comes from.”
The Rise of Written Morality and Civilizations
“Once you have that step in the evolution of human morality, you also tend to see that these societies become so complex that they need to write the rules of their society down.”
Digital Age and the Future of Morality
“It's a so-called collective action problem... it's very, very difficult for a single person unilaterally to opt out of social media and smartphone use. But we see that at the same time, it's something that people would like for everyone to do.”
Conclusion and Call for Intentional Technology Use
Sauer concludes with a hopeful but urgent call: delay social media until age 16, reduce phone use in schools, and prioritize real-world social connection to preserve human well-being.
“In philosophy, this is called the problem of theodicy, explaining evil and suffering even though a benevolent god is supposed to exist. Now when you think about morality in a Darwinian evolutionary framework, you get the opposite problem... it's kind of hard to understand where altruism comes from.”
“It's a so-called collective action problem... it's very, very difficult for a single person unilaterally to opt out of social media and smartphone use. But we see that at the same time, it's something that people would like for everyone to do.”
“Smartphones give you a kind of shadow of the social life. So you're still talking to people, right? You're still texting with people. Maybe you are exchanging funny memes or videos and so on and so on. But it basically gives you this sort of pseudo social interaction that tends to make people kind of miserable.”
Host
Guest
Dr. Hanno Sauer
person
Jay Swords
person
Smartphones
other
Rick Sweet
person
Social Media
other
The Invention of Good and Evil
book
Internet
other
Codex Hammurabi
other
Ten Commandments
other
Printing Press
other
BONUS: Eerie Iowa: The Hawkeye State's Darker Side
Relevant or Irrelevant • 13m • 4/4/2026
Eerie Iowa: The Hawkeye State's Darker Side
Relevant or Irrelevant • 30m • 4/4/2026
The Invention Of Good And Evil: A World History Of Morality
Relevant or Irrelevant • 32m • 4/11/2026
Born Of Ice And Fire: How Glaciers And Volcanoes (With A Pinch Of Salt) Drove Animal Evolution
Relevant or Irrelevant • 30m • 4/18/2026
BONUS: Born Of Ice And Fire: How Glaciers And Volcanoes (With A Pinch Of Salt) Drove Animal Evolution
Relevant or Irrelevant • 14m • 4/18/2026
Get the full intelligence
Search transcripts, export clips, track mentions, and explore all topics from “BONUS: The Invention Of Good And Evil: A World History Of Morality” inside PodZeus.
Start discovering podcast insights today
Start with a 7-day trial and explore a growing catalog of popular podcasts. No credit card required.
No credit card required • 7-day trial • Cancel anytime