Does the term “permanence” help or hinder outcomes for children: Family Justice Council Debate (Part 1)

The Relational Social Work Podcast1h 12mMay 3, 2026

Get the full intelligence

Search transcripts, export clips, track mentions, and explore all topics from “Does the term “permanence” help or hinder outcomes for children: Family Justice Council Debate (Part 1)” inside PodZeus.

AI-Generated Summary

The term 'permanence' in children's social care is under intense scrutiny in this landmark two-part debate hosted by the Family Justice Council and featured on The Relational Social Work Podcast. While the concept was born from a desperate need to replace institutional care with stable, loving families after the 1970s, speakers argue it has become a rigid, legalistic obsession that often fails children. Professor Julie Selwyn defends permanence as essential for security, identity, and long-term stability, citing data on placement instability and the transformative shift to family-based care. However, Matt Clayton and others counter that the system's fixation on permanence—especially through adoption—destroys hope, undermines family reunification, and ignores the reality of change. They argue that permanence as currently framed is a 'fantasy' for most children, with over 12,000 more children in care than a decade ago and adoption breakdowns rising. Legal experts like Tom Wilson affirm permanence's foundational role in law, but Lorraine Kavanagh delivers a devastating critique: the term blinds practitioners to trauma, risks, and the need for flexible, individualized planning. She reveals that adoption plans often lack proper mental health risk assessments, and that 73% of adoptive families feel on the brink of crisis.

Key Takeaways
1

Permanence as a legal concept is now a 'fantasy' for most children in care, with over 12,000 more children in care than a decade ago despite the focus on permanence.

2

Adoption breakdowns are rising: 860 reversals in 2024-25, with 73% of adoptive families feeling on the brink of needing support.

3

The term 'permanence' blinds practitioners to trauma and mental health risks, with suicide attempts and self-harm common among adopted children.

4

Reunification rates have fallen from 39% to 27% since 2011, partly because permanence plans close off the possibility of family change.

5

Relational security—consistent, loving relationships—is more predictive of stability than legal status or placement type.

…and 3 more takeaways available in PodZeus

Chapters
0:00
10 min

Sponsorship & Introduction to the Debate

The episode opens with a sponsorship announcement from The Care Leaders Fellowship, followed by a warm introduction from hosts Hannah Bedford and Matt Clayton, who explain the unique format of this two-part special. They describe recording the podcast in Matt's garden, setting the scene for a groundbreaking debate on the term 'permanence' in children's services, hosted by the Family Justice Council.

9:59
17 min

Professor Julie Selwyn: The Case for Permanence

I am arguing that permanence is a concept that we hold and we must hold dear. and it's not being prioritised sufficiently by either the courts or in practice.

Highlight
26:57
15 min

Matt Clayton: Permanence Hinders Outcomes

For me, the term permanence sets young people up to fail. It promises forever families. often at anything but.

Highlight
41:57
22 min

Dame Annie Hudson: Permanence as Long-Term Planning

Dame Annie Hudson, former chair of the National Safeguarding Practice Review Panel, defends permanence as a crucial tool for long-term thinking. She argues it forces professionals to look beyond immediate crises and consider a child's future across adolescence and adulthood. She emphasizes the need for rigorous planning for reunification, sibling relationships, and cultural continuity, and warns that without permanence, children risk drifting in care.

1:04:02
18 min

Kathy Ashley: Permanence as an Illusion

The system talks about permanence, but for most children in the care system, it's an illusion. And that focus on permanence itself has consequences.

Highlight
High-Impact Quotes
We require a change to our culture in the family justice system to an open and honest investigation of inherent risks of all placement options, which would include the benefit of them.
Lorraine Kavanagh68:56
Viral: 90.0
For me, the term permanence sets young people up to fail. It promises forever families. often at anything but.
Matt Clayton22:26
Viral: 88.0
The system talks about permanence, but for most children in the care system, it's an illusion. And that focus on permanence itself has consequences.
Kathy Ashley46:00
Viral: 82.0
Speakers

Hosts

Hannah BedfordMatt Clayton

Guests

Professor Julie SelwynMatt ClaytonDame Annie HudsonKathy AshleyTom WilsonLorraine Kavanagh
Topics Discussed
permanence in children's services95%adoption breakdowns90%family reunification88%relational security85%long-term care planning82%children's mental health80%legal framework for child welfare78%kinship care75%
People & Brands

Matt Clayton

person

15xPositive

Family Justice Council

organization

12xNeutral

Children Act 1989

other

8xNeutral

Professor Julie Selwyn

person

6xPositive

Family Rights Group

organization

6xPositive

Lorraine Kavanagh

person

5xPositive

Dame Annie Hudson

person

5xPositive

Kathy Ashley

person

5xPositive

The Care Leaders Fellowship

organization

5xPositive

Tom Wilson

person

4xNeutral

Get the full intelligence

Search transcripts, export clips, track mentions, and explore all topics from “Does the term “permanence” help or hinder outcomes for children: Family Justice Council Debate (Part 1)” inside PodZeus.

Start discovering podcast insights today

Start with a 7-day trial and explore a growing catalog of popular podcasts. No credit card required.

No credit card required • 7-day trial • Cancel anytime