מנחות פא 5779
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This episode of Daf Yomi: The 35 Minute Daf explores a complex Talmudic dilemma involving a mixed-up offering: a person has two animals—one a Todah (thanksgiving offering) and one a T'mura (substitute offering)—but after one dies, it's impossible to determine which one survived. The core question is whether to bring the accompanying bread (lechem) with the surviving animal, since the Todah requires bread while the T'mura does not. The Gemara examines multiple solutions, including bringing an additional animal, using a pregnant animal to produce a new offering, or bringing 80 loaves to ensure 40 are kosher. However, each solution faces halachic challenges—such as the need for proper waving (tenufah) of the breads, concerns about spoilage, or the impossibility of bringing bread from Meisr Sheni (second tithe) grain. The discussion concludes with a deep analysis of the source of the Todah’s obligation, its connection to Shlomim, and the rules governing the origin of the bread, emphasizing that while the Todah can be brought from Meisr Sheni money, the actual bread must come from grain purchased with that money, not from the original Meisr Sheni produce itself. The episode ends with a preview of the next day’s discussion on the requirement to bring the Todah from Chulim (ordinary produce).
When a Todah and a T'mura are mixed up and one dies, you cannot determine whether to bring bread with the survivor, creating a halachic impasse.
Bringing an extra animal or 80 loaves to ensure 40 are kosher is problematic due to concerns about tenufah (waving), spoilage, and halachic validity.
The bread for a Todah must come from Chulim (ordinary produce), not from Meisr Sheni grain—even if the money is from Meisr Sheni, the bread must be purchased with that money.
The Todah is considered a type of Shlomim, which allows it to be brought from Meisr Sheni money, but not from the actual Meisr Sheni grain.
You cannot use the original Meisr Sheni grain (sack A) or even grain bought with Meisr Sheni money (sack B) to make the lechem; you must use the money to buy new wheat.
The Mixed-Up Offering: T'mura vs. Todah
“You can't bring the bread with it because maybe it's a tzmur and a tzmur, and you don't bring bread with it.”
Rabbi Yochanan's Solution and Its Limitations
Rabbi Yochanan proposes bringing the bread outside the Azarah, arguing that the bread can become Kadosh even outside. However, the problem arises with the tenufah (waving) of the four loaves given to the Kohanim, which must be done inside the Azarah.
The 80 Loaves Solution and Chizkiah's Principle
The Gemara considers bringing 80 loaves to ensure 40 are kosher, based on Chizkiah’s principle that 40 out of 80 can be kosher even if not known which ones. But this raises concerns about spoilage and the need for proper tenufah.
Bringing a Pregnant Animal: A New Approach
A novel solution is proposed: bring a pregnant animal, wait for birth, and offer both mother and child as Todahs. However, this is challenged on the grounds that one cannot bring two Todahs for one sin, even if the mother was already set aside.
The Final Resolution: Bread from Meisr Sheni Money
“You can't use the wheat that you already transferred the wheat of Meisr Sheni whether it's the original sack A or the original sack B you can't take that and buy Meiser and buy a Lach Meitoda with it.”
“You can't use the wheat that you already transferred the wheat of Meisr Sheni whether it's the original sack A or the original sack B you can't take that and buy Meiser and buy a Lach Meitoda with it.”
“You can't bring the Todah from Meisr Sheni grain, even if the money is from Meisr Sheni.”
“You can't bring the bread with it because maybe it's a tzmur and a tzmur, and you don't bring bread with it.”
Host
Toda
other
T'mura
other
Lechem
other
Meisr Sheni
other
Rabbi Yochanan
person
Shlomim
other
Chulim
other
Yerushalayim
place
Chizkiah
person
Beis HaMikdash
place
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